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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  February 27, 2013 7:00pm-8:00pm PST

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good evening, everyone. 10:00 p.m. here on the east coast and welcome to a special report. killer testimony in the jodi arias trial. joining me tonight is hln's nancy grace. nancy? >> killer testimony is certainly one way to put it. anderson, jodi arias doesn't deny killing her long-time lover, travis alexander. at least, she doesn't anymore. as you know, anderson, at first she denied she was even there on the scene. she talked a lot, anderson. she blamed the murder on two masked intruders, something like ninjas, a man and a woman. but now, anderson, she says she killed travis alexander, all right, but it was in
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self-defense. and even though she's fighting for her life on the stand, she has been smirking her way through nearly two weeks of direct and cross exam. >> nancy, have you ever seen testimony that has gone on for 12 days from a witness accused of murder? >> no, i haven't, because usually most defense attorneys follow conventional wisdom and they don't put their client on the stand. the thinking is it's better for the jury to suspect you're guilty and remain silent than speak and confirm their suspicions. >> this is a death penalty case, and i guess they're trying to appeal to any juror who -- they don't think they're going to get her off of this, but maybe they can at least avoid the death penalty. >> did you say appeal to the jurors? i don't know if detailing her anal and oral sex in the parking lot is really appealing to everybody. >> now that you put it that way, i suppose you're right. day 12, as we said, the prosecution has now worked its way up to the day arias killed
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alexander. it is stuck, though, on the sex that they had that day and on the dirty text messages, raunchy phone sex that the trial has touched on again and again and again. very graphic stuff, including the phone sex tape. >> remember the first time that you and i grinded? um, at ehrenberg. it was so hot. >> you were talking in very fond tones about that experience in this clip that we just played, weren't you? >> yes. >> and it was because it was fun, sflright? >> yes. >> it was something you enjoyed, right? >> yes. >> that enjoyment she talked about strongly contradicts her own testimony that travis alexander sexually abused her and made her feel like a prostitute. >> i would really like to marry a missionary, but like you,
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someone who could be freaky. i worry i might feel like a wilting flower is all who never really blossomed to her full potential. i feel like i have with you, but i feel like i have plenty of blossom time left. >> you're a former prosecutor. i want to know what you feel about the prosecution's cross examination so far. >> anderson, many people have claimed that the prosecution is too hard -- too harsh on arias. but let me remind everybody of the consequences of holding back. you have one swing at the ball, anderson. you got one chance to get up to home plate and swing and hit a home run. and if he doesn't use everything he's got now, he's not going to get a second chance. and back to, as you described, raunchy. i think it's xxx rated, anderson. the whole point is not to talk about their sex life or their proclivities or whether it's
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deviant or not. i didn't really care about that. the point of this sex testimony, anderson, is because from the get-go, she claimed he sexually abused her, beat her, demeaned her, and so on and so on. but now the prosecution, anderson, on cross examination, is using her own words and those nasty, as you say, text messages and firing them right back at her, anderson, to show a lot of their sex activity was at her instigation, and that she liked it. >> the judge has given a lot of leeway in terms of the details in this case. 12 days of testimony, probably, again, because it is a capital murder case. a lot to cover in this hour ahead, and nancy and i, along with jeffrey toobin, dr. drew pinsky. we're going to talk about what happened in court today. the 12 days of testimony, randi kaye was there. ran randi, a lot of focus on the car arias rented when she went to
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visit alexander. it's amazing the details that came out today and nancy is commenting on this. what was the prosecution trying to prove with the line of questioning? explain what happened in court today. >> well, they went at her on this rental car, and really, what they're trying to get at is p premeditation. they're trying to show that she planned to murder travis alexander. so they're trying to show that when she went to the rental car agency, they offered her a red rental car, and she told the agency, no, i don't want a red rental car because that attracts too many police officers. they also showed she filled up three gas cans in california so then when she did go to arizona where she said she never went that there wouldn't be any record or any receipt of her buying gasoline in arizona. and finally, they also showed that the license plate on the back of her rental car had been turned upside down, and the front license plate had actually been removed. so upside down, if anybody saw her car maybe at travis
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alexander's house, they wouldn't be able to give police a record of the plate because it was upside down and not readable. she said there were kids who played a prank on her when she was inside a starbuck's buying a strawberry frappucino. the state doesn't buy that. >> nancy, i think i can hear your eyes rolling right now. when you hear that she buys all this gas to drive to arizona, that just raises all sorts of red flags. >> well, it does, and here's the whole point behind it. not only that, the prosecution pulled up a whole lot of gasoline station receipts in these odd amounts that would not fill your car up. clearly she was filling up the gas cans. when you think about it, and this is how i would put it to the jury. have you ever in your life drirch driven across the country, driven around with five or six
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gas cans of gasoline in your trunk? think how outlandish that is. again, it veered back toward sex again. jean casarez, maybe you can explain better than i can why all these details about their sexual relationship. >> because the defense is showing and wants to show that she was a victim at the hands of travis alexander. yes, there was physical violence, but their theory is it started with her as a victim with his power and control over here over sex, that she was just a follower and he was the dominant one. but today in court it really turned around, because the text messages show that she was the in s instigator many times, she was the leader, and maybe he was the follower. >> i think more than that, it is more dastardly than that, because she, in his death when he can't defend himself, is painting him out to be a
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pedophile. we've gone over this many times. anderson, you and i have talked many times about child porn in this country. and in this case, police combed through his laptop, his desktop, all the way through the attic, the whole house. he never even visited that type of a website, much less downloaded photographs that she said she saw. she's really dragging him through the mud. >> and the number of lies, it's already been proven that she told them to investigators. the ninja idea of a home invasion, saying she wasn't even in arizona when the murder was committed, and randi, arias was asked about a phone call she made to the detective investigating the murder, pretending she had no idea what happened to alexander. again, we now know this was all a lie. let's listen to that. >> do you know when all this happened? i got a call last night. >> sometime between thursday and last night. we're not sure yet.
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>> was there a gun? >> i can't say what type of weapon was used. do you know of him having any weapons at all in the house? >> um, his two fists. >> that's it? >> really. >> there's times when she can't even keep her lies straight on the stand. >> absolutely. first of all, just to think about that phone call. here she is, she already knows that she killed travis alexander. here she is checking in with this detective, checking in on the case. that is mind-boggling on its own. but then you have her checking in asking about the weapons, asking how he died, pretending she doesn't know, and it turns out she did know. the state says that she robbed her grandparents' house, stole a gun from them and that's part of the way she killed him, in addition to the 21 stab wounds, including slitting his throat. she says she found this gun in his closet when he was charging her and grabbing her at the waist. a lot of different stories,
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anderson. first it was two men and then a man and a woman. >> randi, you just brought up a good point. anderson, i know it's not scientific evidence, but i look a lot at body language. she was actually curled up in the chair in a fetal position as she was telling cops this first crazy story. and he asked her point blank, detective flores, did travis alexander own a gun, and she said no, not that i know of. so her story has totally changed about that. and i think one of the reasons she calls the detectives, anderson, is she's trying to find out the forensic evidence so she can tailor her story to what she knows to be the forensic evidence. >> another thing that's remarkable is she was giving interviews to "48 hours" in the run-up to this. she was not only lying to police, but she was going out to a media campaign and lying. >> and every single interview is
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being shown to that jury. and she talks about, i am innocent. i will never be convicted by a jury. the jury is listening to that. and so much about travis, so many inconsistencies. she talks about the wonderful person that travis is, but you didn't hear any of that in the direct examination. you heard about someone that was not only a sexual pervert but someone that abused her physically and mentally. her journal doesn't have anything about physical abuse or mental abuse. it has wonderful things about travis. >> even on those specific days, jean, where she says travis slapped me or he beat me. on those days she writes, everything is great. i don't have anything new to add today. shawn, do you have that "48 hours" sound? let's see it. >> he left the room for a minute, maybe a few minutes, and she was in the bathroom standing over travis, and i charged her. i ran down that hall and i
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pushed her as hard as i could, and she fell over him, landed near the sink. there was two sinks in the master bath, and he landed near the left sink kind of near the trash can close to the windows, and i started to pull on him and i said, come on, come on. come on, let's go, let's go. and he just wasn't -- he was sluggish and lethargic and he wasn't getting up and he wasn't really saying much of anything. he was there and he was conscious and i could see that. he wasn't saying much. i was able to get him -- he was sort of not crawling but he was kind of moving and trying to stand up, and i was able to get him about halfway down the hall when she came back out and we struggled. >> you know, on that version she deserves the medal of honor for trying to save his life. what about that? >> nancy, this is a person who, 27 stab wounds on her ex-boyfriend, none of which she says she can remember doing at
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all. she says she remembers various sounds and things, but 27? >> oh, you're going to love this, anderson. at vthe very end of the day -- i'm going to let jean tell you. jean, were you in there when the prosecution tripped her up on one of the very last questions? she told the jury she has no recollection of what happened, it's all a big blur. but then at the very end, jean, you tell it. >> well, here's what happened. the question was, when did you shower after sex? well, she couldn't quite remember, but she remembered it was the shower. and the question was, is that the same shower that you dragged travis into? yes, she said. she admitted it. and that is counter to her saying she blacked out and doesn't remember a thing. >> whoopie! ruh-roh. >> damning testimony right there. a lot more to talk about. jean and randi, we'll come back to you shortly. nancy and i will be back in just a moment. let us know what you think by
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twitter. we'll be joined by mike gar gag from a defense point strategy. are they simply trying to get her off so she doesn't get the death penalty? remember, she was a blond before, looked very different in the pictures when she was in a relationship with this guy, travis alexander. she looks very different in court. that's not an accident. jeff toobin calls it a make-under, not a make-over. that and more testimony when we continue. >> that's you, that's a person who likes this sort of activity and looking like a horny little scho schoolgirl, right? >> yes. dad: you'll be fine, ok? girl: ok. dad: you look so pretty. ♪
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your posture and your tone ask your anger, so it's harder to process the question. >> you're watching the ac 360, part of jothe jodi arias trial. you're watching the conversation about posturing. i'm wondering what is the legal strategy in this case? criminal attorney mike garagas. nancy, you were talking about some of the criticism the prosecution has been under. mark, you were more critical about the prosecution yesterday, less so today. you think he dialed it back today, but what do you think the prosecution has been doing wrong? >> this prosecutor could have gone in in three to four hours, taken the gas can evidence, taken the reported gun being stolen evidence and a couple other points, got in, got out and decimated her. instead he allows her or has
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allowed her to come back, to get on her feet, to get her kind of sea infinitely better today. he dialed back a lot. >> what do you mean by that? >> apparently i'm the only guy with my finger in the dike of this prosecutorial gang bang we're involved in here tonight. the fact is, when you're defending a death penalty case, you're trying to find something human in this woman. yes, you could paint her to be the most inhuman monster on the planet. but if she's talking about him acting out, basically, as a prosecutor, and i don't disagree with nancy. you only get one strike. i'm not saying hold back, but you don't have to be a 14-karat
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jerk about it. you can get in and prosecute appropriately. >> let's hold on a moment and remind everybody that this prosecutor has already done what is near impossible. he has actually put a woman on death row. statistically, that is very, very difficult to do. so all of the pundits and all the defense attorneys can sit back and throw stones all they want to, but this is the guy who is in the pit, he's fighting, he's sweating, he's trying the case. he has a success record. >> if you try cases, you can make those critical assessments of somebody's trial. i agree with you. if somebody has not tried cases or hasn't tried a case in ten years, i have a problem with them second-guessing. if you're somebody who is trying cases day in and day out, i think you have the ability to say i think this prosecutor was over the top. >> this guy has a winning track record at death penalty cases.
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>> every prosecutor in america has a winning track record. the conviction rate in america is hovering somewhere at 92 to 95%. it's like shooting fish in a barrel. let's not overestimate the prosecutor's track record. take him out of the prosecutor's office and they're lucky to ever win a case. >> jeff, let me talk to you because you are a former prosecutor. do you think he's gone too far? >> he's got a target rich environment with this woman. she has lied so many times that you have to pick and choose. prosecutors, we want to press every advantage. and the core of his case is that she claims abuse, yet if you look at her diary, if you look at her records, if you look at the e-mails, she seems to be enjoying this relationship a great deal. perhaps she could have -- he could have made that point with 20 e-mails instead of 50 e-mails and texts and voice mails. >> you said it yesterday.
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you said it was an embarrassment of riches. there may be a point here where he was so excited, where do you start, what do you do, but at a certain point, somebody has to sit and council him and say, dial in, dial basketball, slaughter her and be done with this. >> but they're just hoping not to have her killed. >> i can't say in my heart of hearts this defense lawyer is predicting a not guilty. i'm not in that courtroom. maybe he does. i think this is someone who is hoping -- one of the things he could also, and one of the things that has been speculated on, you can have a hung jury -- i've had a hung jury on at least ten different occasions where they find -- it's between a first and a second, between a murder and a manslaughter. where you get jurors who say, no, i'm not going to convict a premeditat premeditated. you have another juror who says i'm absolutely not going to convict on anything less. >> this is why death penalty case are so much more expensive
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than other kinds of cases. when you have a death penalty case like this, the judge let's the defense do pretty much anything they want. so you had nine days of direct testimony by arias, which is just absurd. there is no reason anybody needs to testify for nine days. >> guys, guys -- >> but the judge let her do it. >> before we go down the slippery slope of how much justice costs, i want to remind everybody of something that happened in court the other day. you know, travis alexander doesn't have any parents. his parents are both dead. he was raised largely by his grandmother. and after slaughtering travis alexander, including nine stab wounds to the back, slit ear to ear and a gunshot wound just to cap it off in the head, 29 stab wounds, she sends his grandmother, the murderer, the killer, sends his grandmother flowers, sympathy flowers. now, don't you know that
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grandmother wishes she had picked that vase up and thrown it to the ground. and now she's got to listen to jodi arias go on and on and on. >> right, and she has to listen to her go on and on and on for jeff's point -- >> it goes to credibility. >> no, it doesn't, nancy. but for a death penalty case, the mothjudge is not going to l anybody go on for nine or ten days. >> you already said that. i heard it the first time. >> jeff said that. >> this is about credibility. >> an execution, nancy, by the state is not necessarily everybody's idea of justice. >> well, it's not necessarily my idea of justice. so i don't know why you're saying that. but i am telling you, if i could be so bold as to speak without being interrupted, that what she did to travis alexander's
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grandmother is extremely important here. because it shows who she is and what she is all about. >> exactly. so that's what you -- >> people don't really matter to her. >> what does that have to do with the idea of this being a death penalty? fine, go in, cross-examine her on that. make her look like the absolutely diabolol ical person you want her to be and move on. >> when she said she couldn't focus on the questioning, that she was focusing on his posture, do you think that helped with the jury? >> it's possible somebody had sympathy for her, but i don't think so. she definitely knows what fork to use at dinner. she's sitting there like she's at a tea party. this is a murder 1 death penalty
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case. we just heard all about her oral sex, her anal sex, her getting tied up, the whole shebang. now she's acting reticent? you know what? stop. >> i think nancy makes an interesting point about how she looks. there's been this astonishing physical transformation. the jury has seen photographs of her when she was with travis and she was blond and wearing tight clothes. and now she comes before the jury and she looks like a stereotype of a third grade schoolteacher, a librarian with the thick glasses and the brown hair -- >> you're not going to have her going up there looking like she does in some of those pictures. >> you and i talked about this a little bit earlier tonight, which i find fascinating. studies have shown that female jurors are much harder on men than women. >> women jurors are very tough on women victims.
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they don't like consent defenses. they're tough in date rape cases. >> we have to take a break. we're going to be back with nancy. there's something else we want to talk about, straight ahead. all of jodi arias' lies, and there have been so many. more about how she changed her story about what happened so many times that she admitted on the stand today, she's even having a hard time keeping it straight. we'll get into that when we continue. earn a ton of extra points with the double your hhonors promotion and feel the hamptonality. there's a lot i had to do... watch my diet. stay active. start insulin... today, i learned there's something i don't have to do anymore. my doctor said that with novolog® flexpen, i don't have to use a syringe and a vial or carry a cooler. flexpen® comes prefilled with fast-acting insulin used to help control high blood sugar when you eat.
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and that's another version of events that occurred, correct? >> yes. >> and they're not true, right? >> neither of them. it's all the same things, just different versions. i couldn't keep my life straight. >> that's jodi arias on trial admitting that even she's having trouble keeping all of her stories straight. with us tonight, senior analyst jeff toobin, dr. drew pinsky of "dr. drew on call." dr. drew, it's nice to see you. i know it doesn't always matter in court the prosecution has a job to do, they have to prove who did what and it doesn't always matter. but what kind of person can make up these elaborate stories, and then, she knows she killed him, but they go on national tv and
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tell different versions. >> well, that person could be a psychopath. and jodi, in fact, fits a pattern of psychopathic stalking. it's the same person that can sit on the stand and say to us, you know, jodi wouldn't do that kind of thing. that's not jodi. i don't want to give a picture of someone who might do those horrible things, that's why i told those ridiculous stories i couldn't keep straight. and by the way, jodi is the type of person who would send the victim, the man i slaughtered, his grandmother irises in sympathy. do you remember why irises? because we decided we were going to name our daughter iris. >> that disconnect is fantastic. >> help me out. all the guys are attacking me saying that that doesn't matter. but you know what? i know when my fiance was murdered, if his murderer had sent me a vase of flowers, i don't know what i would have done. and it does matter.
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it does matter that she did that to his grandmother. >> it does matter, and although i hear mark groaning in the background -- >> he's groaning because it's not 1997. groan away. >> nancy, you -- >> i asked drew, not you. >> you were talking about my groaning. >> he was. i want to hear pinsky, not you. >> there's been an excess of groaning in this trial. >> so garagos, what do you think about the rope evidence? >> the what? >> the rope evidence. >> to my mind, everything in this case -- you've heard about a mountain of evidence, this is an absolute overwhelming tsunami of evidence against her. the only shot that the defense has in this case is somehow to get a couple of those jurors
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to -- if not identify with her, at least want to come and help her. >> to that point, dr. drew, i wanted to hear your perspective, because if you noticed, in that clip we just played, she is constantly looking over at the jury, trying to make eye contact with the jurors. that's conscious. >> not only is it conscious, the problem is it's done like a robot. i'm sure she's schooled to do it, but it's like everything else with jodi. it's disconnected. mark was on my show talking about something fascinating. you were talking about getting sympathy from someone on the jury. women are becoming a little more sympathetic with this woman the longer she stays on the stand. men are getting completely creeped out to the point we almost can't tolerate it anymore. i think if she finds sympathy, it's going to be with a female juror. >> which is almost counter
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intuitive when you find what's going on here. >> and you think she may be bullied by the prosecutor? >> when you ask jurors after a trial, why did you do this, why did you do that, you can drive yourself crazy with that type of analysis. it's generally a type of zeitgeist. they go because they're bullied, you want to go with the underdog. you carry some kind of theme and hope it resonates with the jurors. yesterday what was happening, i think, was there was some overplaying of the prosecution's hand to the point it could resonate with some jurors. you can say good lord in heaven, but nancy -- >> you need a reality check, because you're talking about -- do not make me cut your mic. anderson won't do it, but i will do it. you all are completely wrong calling jodi arias -- calling jodi arias the underdog. let me remind you that travis
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alexander had a life ahead of him. he was a great young guy trying to follow his fate whether you all believe it or not. he took 29 stab wounds. he is the underdog. you keep referring to her like she is somehow being pressed upon. she killed him. >> you can construct whatever kind of narrative you want, nancy, that's one of the reasons that you were great as a prosecutor. what i'm trying to explain to you and to anybody who is listening before you cut the mic, although i think anderson's people have control of the mic tonight, that unfortunately for you, there is still a jury there. it's not your studio audience that's going to be voting thumbs up or thumbs down. >> you know what, that's completely irrelevant what you're saying. i was trying to point out -- >> can i just ask dr. drew a question, because this, to me, i think -- we've been talking a lot about sex and this sort of
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solacious evidence, but to me the most sinister evidence was today, and it had nothing to do with sex. it was this woman in california filling up gas cans to go all the way to arizona and back so she wouldn't have to buy gasoline. no one could find that she had purchased gasoline in arizona. a degree of premeditation that i think not even the hardened hit men might sometimes think of. that's just astonishing to me that she had that sort of criminal mind, or so it appeared. >> so it appears. and that's the level of disconnect and the level of rage. i've been interviewing some people who say she might have developed something called a borderline rage in someone with psychopathic tendency who had developed psychopathic stalking tendencies. she disinvolves her own behavior and starts planning something that makes complete sense to her. and i agree, i saw pictures of
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the murder scene but i thought it important to see -- >> i wanted to scream when i saw his dead body slumped down in the shower. >> i showed that because just the way when we're teaching medical students, we have to show people the specimen. there is an experiential testimony. the brutality is what's left out of this case. >> he was left in the shower for several days. there was the 911 call from a friend who said, i found him in the shower. >> anderson, i'll tell you what happened, and the prosecution has brought this out. she has a history, she gets boyfriend, they immediately have sex very early on, they get very close, very serious. she believes she's wronged. either he cheeats or flirts or something. she breaks into his e-mail and then races out for a consultation. it's happened over and over and over. this time he was still sleeping
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with her but was taking another woman in the next couple of days to cancun and she flipped out and she murdered him. that's what happened. >> but again, the level of alleged premeditation is extraordinary, dr. drew. >> extraordinary, i agree, i understand, but nancy is right, it's something some people categorize as simple obsession. simple obsessional stalking. however, what jeffrey was pointing out is the psychopathic component to this, and that's what makes it hard to look away, how this woman could lie with such pun ity, to see her day after day on the stand. >> again, if it is a psychopathic tendency, to see that laid bare just day after day, hour after hour on the witness stand is an extraordinary thing, and it continues more. we have to take a quick break. we're with nancy and jeff toobin, mark garagos and dr.
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drew. how she's morphed into kind of a plain jane and whether that's going to help or hurt her case. ha! never even came close. sometimes, i actually think it's mocking me. [ engine revs ] what?! quattro!!!!! ♪ [ male announcer ] how could switchgrass in argentina, change engineering in dubai, aluminum production in south africa, and the aerospace industry in the u.s.? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 75% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing.
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coming up, more of the extraordinary lives that have emerged on the witness stand that jodi arias has told time and time again on detectives and even on the witness stand, straight ahead.
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jodi, why do you think dekt t tifz think you killed travis? >> there was a lot of evidence that said i was in his house. of the evidence they presented to me, i was asked the question, if you were presented as evidence in your party, what would you think? i need to be honest, the evidence is very compelling. but none of it proves that i committed a murder. none of it proves that i committed a crime. what it does substantiate is what i did tell detectives. >> i have to ask you this.
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did you kill travis alexander? >> absolutely not. no, i had no part in it. >> so fascinating to watch that, nancy, when now we know, of course, she was lying. and when somebody says, i have to be honest, that always raises all sorts of red flags for me in an interview. >> you're not the rest of the time, you've got to be honest this time? >> right. just to watch her stone-faced lying right there is fascinating. i'm here with nancy grace. take a look at the woman on trial today. she looks a lot different from the woman who dated travis alexander. blond hair is gone along with any trace of makeup. she wears glasses. we don't even know if she really needs glasses. she's not the first defendant to get a make-under instead of a make-over. juror randi kaye joins us again, dr. drew pinsky, mark garagos, jean casarez from "in session"
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on trutv. what do you think of her look? >> sure, they dressed her different in court. i also noticed her chair is lower than the rest of the chairs are, so she looks like the demure person they want her to look like. >> that's a trick jeffrey toobin uses. >> how long can she be on the stand? >> maybe nancy has some experience like this. i have never seen a defendant testify for ten days. particularly for -- 12 days hno, and basically nine or ten on direct. >> it's astonishing. >> particularly for defense witnesses, direct testimony tends to be pretty brief. but the judge clearly is just letting both sides go on as long
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as they want, and it didn't sound like they were going to finish tomorrow. >> it's interesting that you would say that, jeff, because you know where they left off today. they left off at about 2:00 the day of the killing. that jury has to be on the edge of their seats, because he was killed at about 5:30. and what's interesting is she had this digicam, a digital camera with her, and she's taking pictures of him in the shower of apparently what they believe are sexy pictures of him flexing his muscles. and they're time stamped. within three minutes from that photo, it's accidentally a photo of her dragging his body to put him back into the shower. it all happens in just three minutes. >> dr. drew, let's talk about that, because that's what's so crazy. i don't want to use that term, but that's so bizarre to me -- >> it's a great word. >> -- that she is taking photos minutes before a killing is about to take place. how do you process that? >> a normal person can't.
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that's why we can't look away. you know what's interesting is most psychopaths are male, so the fact this is a female already catches our attention, and then the extraordinary brutality and the cold-blooded nature of this with the premeditation we've all been talking about this evening, it's sort of what keeps us interested because we literally can't believe it. a normal brain won't do that. >> just remind us, dr. drew, you talk about sociopath, you talk about psychopath. what's the difference? >> sociopaths are usually often trauma survivors. they really don't believe other people have feelings or can't appreciate those feelings and use people for their own. a psychopath is disconnected and disavows everything and takes responsibility for nothing. >> that's interesting, too. hey, randi, when you're in the courtroom, i'm interested to hear if you observed the same thing i did in the courtroom, you and jean.
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does she ever really change her affect in court? when she's acting like she's taken aback by the prosecutor, she has the very same demeanor. it's all a big charade. >> absolutely. she's trying to confuse the prosecutor in a way. seems almost as if she's playing games with him. and she never changes her face. she's always very solemn looking, very quiet, almost shy, and then when he goes at her, it just makes him look bad, which is why he's getting so much criticism. and she also, as you know, nancy, she tries to engage the jury. every answer she looks at the jury and answers to the jury first and then turns back to the prosecutor. >> let me just jump in here and play devil's advocate, because is it fair to be judging how somebody is on a witness stand, how somebody -- i mean, everybody responds to grief, responds to trauma in different ways. you think back -- remember that case in australia of the woman who said a dingo had eaten her
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baby. she was resoundly criticized and nobody in australia believed her because of the way she appeared on the witness stand. she didn't seem like she was grieving enough. is it fair, mark, jeff, to really kind of -- >> it may or may not be fair, but we have a jury, and juries respond as normal people do. ask your affect on the stand matters a great deal. i can't say watching her that her affect is so terrible that she's going to get the death penalty. the weird sort of half-smile is the thing that has struck me, but we all have a picture in our head of what the appropriate way to respond to tragedy, and we may be simply wrong. >> they were able to prove nath a dingo ate that baby. >> that's why the defense doesn't usually want to put somebody on the stand. they're carted over from jail at 4:00 in the morning, you have a
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prosecutor who slept in his own bed, he's going to prosecute this person. he has control of the courtroom. you would always expect that it's going to be an uneven fight. and the jury instructions do generally tell you that the jurors are supposed to take into account their affect, the way they give testimony, so that's certainly in play. >> mark -- go ahead. >> i think no matter how she acts in court, once these jurors see these crime scene photos which is expected to happen tomorrow, and they think of her stabbing travis alexander once in the heart, in the chest while he's kneeled down in his vulnerable position in his bathroom, and then when he's up at the sink spitting up blood and she's stabbing him nine times in the back, that's what they're going to remember. that's all they're going to remember when this trial is said and done, i think. >> interesting. and again, she says she doesn't remember any of that. she doesn't remember the stabbings time after time, one after another after another. we have to take another quick break.
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tell your doctor about other medicines you're taking. call your doctor right away if you have muscle pain or weakness, feel unusually tired, have loss of appetite, upper belly pain, dark urine or yellowing of skin or eyes. these could be signs of rare but serious side effects. ♪ is your cholesterol at goal? talk to your doctor about crestor. [ female announcer ] if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. was the relationship ever violent. >> we're with nancy grace. you were saying tomorrow, day 13 for this woman on the witness stand, perhaps the most dramatic testimony yet counting down to the last minutes of travis alexander's life. >> yes, it will be. and she has already stated that
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she has no recollection of stabbing him and slicing his throat. but i really wish everyone would try to reverse the roles. if a man had driven that far to kill a woman he had been stalking and terrorizing, this would have been open and closed. people see jodi arias and they are taken with her beauty. i see a killer when i look at her, anderson. >> interesting perspective. thank you for being on this hour. >> thank you for having me. >> everyone have a great night. we'll see you tomorrow. we call the internet of everything. ♪ it's going to be amazing. and exciting. and maybe, most remarkably, not that far away. we're going to wake the world up. and watch, with eyes wide, as it gets to work. cisco. tomorrow starts here.
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